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Benn

Why aren't comic and movie characters in separate waves?

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It seems like most people have, at the very least, a pronounced preference for either comic- or movie-based figures, so I assume Hasbro's game-plan is to use BAFs to lure people in to picking up whichever of the two types of figures they least prefer. But isn't that plan just as likely to back fire?

I'm firmly on team comics, but I also only care about X-Men-related characters, so I've been lucky so far not to have to deal with mixed waves. I wouldn't pick up a movie-based figure under probably any circumstances, so isn't Hasbro just cutting off customers like me, who would otherwise buy the entirety of a wave if it were all-comic? If the annual X-Men wave suddenly had four movie figures in it (as it seems likely to do after the X-Men join the MCU), they'd sell me four fewer figures that year. If they put out a comics-based BAF that involved buying movie figures, I'd just buy the BAF parts second-hand from a collector who only wants movie figures.

I don't know. I'm sure they're getting a lot of people to buy figures they otherwise wouldn't this way, but feel-bad purchases deteriorate enthusiasm for collecting the line, and everything just feels so muddled this way. It seems like separate waves would lead to happier customers more often than not.

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as it has been explained to death at stage (so much so that I really think it should just be accepted) it is because of the stores. They want Movie based figures. they think it sells and despite us moaning that it doesn't (don't start that arguement again guys), they actually do. However if the stores had their ways it would ONLY be Movie figures. No Spider-man line, No X-men line, nothing like that.

Hasbro knows the fan want BOTH (whether they collect both or just comic or mcu). They make the decision to mix the wave in order for us to get new and obscure character or a new costume, while they have to satisfy mcu collector as well. Stores will buy the wave if they know there is a movie coming out and that Hasbro want to promote it. 

If Hasbro separated the line, guess what? Stores will only order the MCU wave. They don't care about the comic figure. Sure one could argue that store get the X-men and Spidey but that is only because they are the 2 biggest franchises for Marvel. They will sell. Do you think store can sell a Thor wave if he wasn't in a movie? no they couldn't. 

and Don't bother using the M'Baku wave as a reason. That was only made because Disney forced Hasbro to release it. Thus the reason most of it was just kitbashes and repaints. It was rushed and if Hasbro had a chance to plan it better, they would have comic figure in it. The "newer" figure, M'Baku, Klaue and Killmonger,  were probably planned but were dropped or  for a later wave like Endgame.

In order for us to get new figures , they have to keep the line a both mcu and comic together in order for the line to survive. Separate the line and it will eventually become movie only line you can find in the stores. the mixed line is needed to keep the line going. 

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That seems pretty flimsy to me. Big box stores have been carrying comic-based action figures since well before there were good, well-merchandised super hero movies. And those sorts of stores really only care about their bottom line. They'll keep carrying whatever sells. And they have entire departments that exist just to analyze those sales in absurd detail. There's not really a sentimental component to their strategy.

Likewise, smaller stores are usually pretty in-touch with their customers, and can be trusted not to make crazy assumptions like "nobody will buy these comic figures" unless they're true, which might be the case for movies/music/media stores, etc. I would have to guess the movie figures do great at big box stores but a lot less well at smaller specialty stores, whereas I would think comics figures do great at specialty stores and still do pretty well at the bigger outlets.

Ultimately, I'm not all that concerned, personally. Until the X-Men join the MCU I don't really have a horse in this race. The current methodology just seems to bum people out so much, which tells me it's not a very smart way of doing it.

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7 hours ago, tarot said:

as it has been explained to death at stage (so much so that I really think it should just be accepted) it is because of the stores. They want Movie based figures. they think it sells and despite us moaning that it doesn't (don't start that arguement again guys), they actually do. However if the stores had their ways it would ONLY be Movie figures. No Spider-man line, No X-men line, nothing like that.

Hasbro knows the fan want BOTH (whether they collect both or just comic or mcu). They make the decision to mix the wave in order for us to get new and obscure character or a new costume, while they have to satisfy mcu collector as well. Stores will buy the wave if they know there is a movie coming out and that Hasbro want to promote it. 

If Hasbro separated the line, guess what? Stores will only order the MCU wave. They don't care about the comic figure. Sure one could argue that store get the X-men and Spidey but that is only because they are the 2 biggest franchises for Marvel. They will sell. Do you think store can sell a Thor wave if he wasn't in a movie? no they couldn't. 

and Don't bother using the M'Baku wave as a reason. That was only made because Disney forced Hasbro to release it. Thus the reason most of it was just kitbashes and repaints. It was rushed and if Hasbro had a chance to plan it better, they would have comic figure in it. The "newer" figure, M'Baku, Klaue and Killmonger,  were probably planned but were dropped or  for a later wave like Endgame.

In order for us to get new figures , they have to keep the line a both mcu and comic together in order for the line to survive. Separate the line and it will eventually become movie only line you can find in the stores. the mixed line is needed to keep the line going. 

Even here in Ireland, where Marvel legends figures aren't even sold in the Largest Toy Stores, The Movie figures tend to sell out, while the comic characters tend to stick around (which is good for me). Also given that some of the MCU characters don't change their looks often or look very samey, it is good to get some variety in the waves.

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8 hours ago, Benn said:

It seems like most people have, at the very least, a pronounced preference for either comic- or movie-based figures, so I assume Hasbro's game-plan is to use BAFs to lure people in to picking up whichever of the two types of figures they least prefer. But isn't that plan just as likely to back fire?

I'm firmly on team comics, but I also only care about X-Men-related characters, so I've been lucky so far not to have to deal with mixed waves. I wouldn't pick up a movie-based figure under probably any circumstances, so isn't Hasbro just cutting off customers like me, who would otherwise buy the entirety of a wave if it were all-comic? If the annual X-Men wave suddenly had four movie figures in it (as it seems likely to do after the X-Men join the MCU), they'd sell me four fewer figures that year. If they put out a comics-based BAF that involved buying movie figures, I'd just buy the BAF parts second-hand from a collector who only wants movie figures.

I don't know. I'm sure they're getting a lot of people to buy figures they otherwise wouldn't this way, but feel-bad purchases deteriorate enthusiasm for collecting the line, and everything just feels so muddled this way. It seems like separate waves would lead to happier customers more often than not.

I'm in the same boat in that I don't collect MCU figures and only collect the X-men line. Once Hasbro starts producing MCU X-men Marvel Legends though, I'm surely all in for that. Can't wait!

You don't see yourself buying X-men movie figures?

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From Hasbro's point of view, I think combining a few comic figs into the mcu waves cuts costs since generally the mcu figs require more new tooling while the comic figs in the waves are cheaper to produce since they tend involve a lot of re-use of previously tooled parts.   Note that the recent all mcu BP wave had a TON of re-use (Klaue and M'Baku aside).  I think if they were making an all-mcu wave, Hasbro would try to raise the price to $25 per figure (see the 10th anniv line, for example).  Including a couple of comic figs in the waves helps them be able to market the wave at the $20 price point imo.

And yeah,  I think given a choice, the big retailers top would focus on movie waves.  Obviously none of us have access to overall sales figures, but anecdotally I find that the mcu figs generally sell, except maybe double-packed ones like ant-man and wasp (or i guess you could go back to Baron Mordo & astral mcu strange).  In my experience the pegwarmers are usually some of the less popular or re-released comic figs (right now the only ML my local Walmart has are a bunch of songbirds and gwenpools, plus one ms marvel figure) such as Gladiator and Malekith.  Furthermore, i can always count on the mcu waves showing up in stores, while my local WM and Target never stocked the Venom or Sp//dr waves, nor the 2nd Deadpool wave (although i saw figs from these waves at a slightly higher price point at Gamestop).  Obviously your experience may be different from mine.

I like and collect both types of figs. I love the realistic faces and detailing on the mcu figs, and i love getting comic figs both major characters and obscure c-list villains.  I appreciate that despite slightly different size scales and looks, the MCU figs and comic figs often look good posed together, as opposed to DC Multiverse where often the figs within a wave clashed with each other more substantially.  My guess is that when marvel starts making x-men movies, you will see fewer comic-related x-figures, so I'd enjoy the all-comic mutant waves while they last.  I feel like the ragnarok wave was the last mcu wave that had comic versions of the movie character, lately the only comic versions of mcu avengers came in the vintage wave iirc.

 

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5 hours ago, enzosaurusrex said:

You don't see yourself buying X-men movie figures?

Probably not. They just don't hold any appeal for me. Who knows when they come out, obviously, but my suspicion is 'no'.

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It's Marketing 101. You play to your audience.

More people watch the MCU movies cartoons, and TV shows than have, or ever will, read a Marvel comic book. Hasbro is smart to play to that audience. If 10 guys want comic-based figures, and 20 guys want MCU figures, you sell 'em together and, with a little luck, sell 30 figures.

And as I always point out in these pointless arguments, ToyBiz first and foremost sold comic-based Marvel figures. Now there IS no ToyBiz.

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I'm one of those that only collect MCU figures.  I will get the occassional non-MCU figure though.  It's very rare that I buy the whole wave to get the BAF figure though.  Because most of the time, I only want less than half the wave, if I want the BAF, I'd end up just buying the BAF pieces.

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Everyone seems to have a different base opinion most likely depending on the way the products sell in their region. I and @mako have been known to get in some rather lengthy arguments as to which sell better. He says the MCU figs fly off the shelf in his area and in in my area the comic figures outsell the movie figs many times over, so much so that I just cherry pick the MCU heavy waves and then wait for the rest to go on clearance. And we don't actually live that far apart.

I also think @tarot has a way of oversimplifying the whole "stores won't stock it if it ain't got a movie" angle cuz anyone with eyes can see that doesn't fly either. Does it help, yes. Is it totally necessary, no. But ML sold well before they were made so MCU heavy and they will sell well without it. You can build a wave on the simple strength of the recognition of the character without a direct movie tie in. Does anyone here really believe comic based waves of Iron Man, Captain America, Thor or Hulk will not sell just because they have no movie tie in? That's preposterous and we all know it and the buyers for the big box stores know it too. If that were the case they never woulda stocked any X-Men waves as they never had any direct movie ties but we're certainly recognizable to the general public due in part to the movies. And as we know, they sold big. I barely would have even known my local Wal-Mart even got those waves had it not been for the Old Man Logan, Kitty Pryde and Polaris' lingering on the shelves.

I for one, am a fan of splitting the MCU and comic franchises. Based on input from both sides (and my own personal views aside) it would seem that both of them would sell with confident success. But, if anyone really wants to understand the biggest reason Disney forces Hasbro to manipulate the character selection in any particular wave, they need only understand Disney's sudden worldwide appointment as propagator of all social and political issues. You can believe it or turn a blind eye to it. Either way doesn't not make it so. This is why they wanted to make it damn clear that Carol Danvers alone was the one and only "HERo" (in case you didn't catch that part in the movie trailer) and central character of both the movies and toys. You can't have the steriotyped, exploited, exposed thighed "Ms." Marvel outshine the mighty Captain Marvel. You can't have Mar-Vell with all his toxic masculinity trying to proclaim and mansplain his legacy as the original Captain Marvel. You can't have another evil male like Quasar trying to downgrade and oppress poor Carol in order to lay claim to her rightful position as the galaxy's mightiest protector. And you sure as hell can't have Super-Skrull who is possibly ultimately more powerful than she is and most likely able to do anything she can do, and better, due to his ability to mimic any power.

No, that wave is exactly what it was meant to be. One...err, I mean two of the central female character surrounded by three bland secondary characters and two minor comic characters, one of which has zero to no history with said central character. Basically the major intent was to make this wave the exact opposite of what the Ant-Man wave was due to the sheer lack of MCU source material as the first movie in a new franchise. If they had arranged the Ant-Man assortment in a similar way it would have consisted of Ant-Man, Unmasked Ant-Man, Hank Pym (in a suit), Hank Pym as Ant-Man (MCU), Yellowjacket (which actually shoulda happened), Tigershark and Giant Man. No Reaper or Dozer anywhere in sight to outperform the main character, who was actually a man, so I guess that woulda been okay by today's standards.

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I do think there is a bit of overkill with 4 Carol figs, but i assume Hasbro does anticipate the figure will have appeal to some folks outside the usual collectors.  Its also very strange to me  have an mcu wave with a comic BAF, after doing mcu BAFs for mcu waves throughout 2018, so perhaps this wave is just an odd duck.

I think some of it is that hasbro got caught a bit flat-footed by the success of Black Panther - where they only had one wave with 4 movie characters and NO movie-based exclusives until the much later Ross-Killmonger 2 pack.   I'm sure in retrospect they wish they had come up with Target and WM exclusive mcu BP variants.

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2 hours ago, monron999 said:

But, if anyone really wants to understand the biggest reason Disney forces Hasbro to manipulate the character selection in any particular wave, they need only understand Disney's sudden worldwide appointment as propagator of all social and political issues.

I'm sorry. I was with you until you took a hard turn into MRA rhetoric. Are you really saying you're opposed to more representation of women in comics culture? I agree with your assessment that Disney is making a concerted effort to better represent a diverse array of people in their movies, but how could that possibly be a bad thing? More accessibility can only ever be good for the fans in the long run.

None of the movies perfectly align to comic history, which is great, because comic history is riddled with really questionable storytelling, much of which is pretty out of step with the world of today. Carol is the iconic Captain Marvel. The fact that they didn't feel it was necessary to have Carol inherit the mantle from a dude is pretty refreshing for a movie franchise that began with a super team of five white dudes and one (also white) lady. I'm not a fan of her Legends wave (which, I might add, is still majority male), but the movie's not out yet, so we really have no idea why they made the character choices they did. On the face, it seems reasonable to focus it around the titular character, though.

And all of that is on top of the fact that, regardless of Disney's push, Marvel Legends is still predominantly composed of white male characters. I don't know the non-X waves well enough to evaluate them from memory, but of the recent X-Men waves:

Wave 1: six white dudes (one of whom is LGBTQ+) and three white ladies (one of whom is Jewish)

Wave 2: four white dudes (one of whom is LGBTQ+, and sort of an alien or a clone or a paradox or all three, I guess), one Asian dude, two white ladies, and one technarch

Wave 3: four white dudes, one purple dude, one black lady, one (kind of) Asian lady, and one ancient Egyptian dude

Wave 4: five white dudes, one native American dude, and two (?) Asian ladies (I'm admittedly not sure of Blink's race)

That's pretty overwhelmingly white and male.

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Yeah, I know her last name's Ferguson, but names get passed down in a variety of ways, and she was also portrayed by an Asian actress in Days of Future Past, so I just wasn't sure. Nevertheless...

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8 hours ago, enzosaurusrex said:

In the comics, Blink is white: Clarice Ferguson (Irish?)

Renamed Clarice Fong for The Gifted.

She's black. Read "Exiles".

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I have, but it's been a long time. Thanks for the clarification!

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On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 7:09 PM, tarot said:

Do you think store can sell a Thor wave if he wasn't in a movie? no they couldn't. 

I refuse to believe that :)

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8 hours ago, Rukkdeez said:

She's black. Read "Exiles".

Ah...News to me. I don't read Exiles. The last Blink story I read was AOA. Is she still Clarice Ferguson in Exiles?

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I find it funny how you guys are arguing about a character from a branch of Marvel with dozen of different colors people including White, Black, Brown, Yellow, Blue, Green, Pink, Purple, Grey ETC. LOL

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On 2/6/2019 at 8:05 PM, Benn said:

I'm sorry. I was with you until you took a hard turn into MRA rhetoric. Are you really saying you're opposed to more representation of women in comics culture? I agree with your assessment that Disney is making a concerted effort to better represent a diverse array of people in their movies, but how could that possibly be a bad thing? More accessibility can only ever be good for the fans in the long run.

None of the movies perfectly align to comic history, which is great, because comic history is riddled with really questionable storytelling, much of which is pretty out of step with the world of today. Carol is the iconic Captain Marvel. The fact that they didn't feel it was necessary to have Carol inherit the mantle from a dude is pretty refreshing for a movie franchise that began with a super team of five white dudes and one (also white) lady. I'm not a fan of her Legends wave (which, I might add, is still majority male), but the movie's not out yet, so we really have no idea why they made the character choices they did. On the face, it seems reasonable to focus it around the titular character, though.

And all of that is on top of the fact that, regardless of Disney's push, Marvel Legends is still predominantly composed of white male characters. I don't know the non-X waves well enough to evaluate them from memory, but of the recent X-Men waves:

Wave 1: six white dudes (one of whom is LGBTQ+) and three white ladies (one of whom is Jewish)

Wave 2: four white dudes (one of whom is LGBTQ+, and sort of an alien or a clone or a paradox or all three, I guess), one Asian dude, two white ladies, and one technarch

Wave 3: four white dudes, one purple dude, one black lady, one (kind of) Asian lady, and one ancient Egyptian dude

Wave 4: five white dudes, one native American dude, and two (?) Asian ladies (I'm admittedly not sure of Blink's race)

That's pretty overwhelmingly white and male.

No, it's not a bad thing. I'm all for it. But I'm all about letting it happen organically. I like the Captain Marvel character. The movie even looks to be good so far. Really, you don't find it rather heavy handed that they really find it necessary to constantly reiterate she's a woman? To me it's even more insulting that they feel like they have to segregate her out as a female hero. Why can't she just be a hero. Why does she have to be a HERo? It's just a ridiculously overboard push to me.

And yes, I do believe the wave was intentionally made to push her out front as the main attraction. How else would you explain the laughably underwhelming assortment. In who else's mind, other than someone who has a specific idealism to push, would they put those secondary characters over much demanded figures like Mar-Vell, Ms. Marvel and Super Skrull? And the two comic figures they did include were only marginal wants, at best. Yes, I believe they made some decisions for political reasons over common sense and economical logic. I believe they wanted the optics that the Captain Marvel figure was the most popular, which I'll agree it is. So the plan worked, but only for the fact that every other figure in the wave is pretty lame, to put it nicely. Now, I'll ask you to put it in perspective from where I'm seeing. Do you think that would still be the case if Mar-Vell, Ms. Marvel/Karla Sofen, Quasar or Super Skrull were in the assortment rather than Fury and Talos (both of who coulda been done with simple pack in head sculpt)? I don't mind the diversity. Don't paint me with an intolerant brush just because I point out the fact that Disney constantly harps on race, gender and religion. That's not the case. I'm a man of multiethnicity myself. I'm just so tired of being hammered in the face with their views in every form of media. Yes, we understand she's a woman, were not stupid. Make something we like and we will buy it. Stop engineering everything around a narrative you want to push.

Back on subject though. I do feel the fix was in on this wave, and it worked. I only bought Captain Marvel and Genus-Vell. I think my reasoning is valid and I stand beside it. It doesn't mean I'm intolerant or any kind of "ist" or "phobe". I'm just tired of being told how to feel and how to think. And now it's creeping into my only mediums I had left (comics & toys). The funny thing is I never saw race, gender or sexual orientation as a problem in comics when I was a kid. I only saw the person as a character and an extension of the human spirit as a whole. Who cared what color the damn ink they used. It was only in recent time it's been drilled into my head about the lack of diversity and yadda, yadda, yadda....the next gripe of the day. Long story made even longer....this wave coulda and shoulda been so much better and I think the wave was sabotaged and the strength of the entire yearly line up of ML was sacrificed for the wrong reasons. That's all.

PS. I don't think there's been any kind of concerted effort to make Blink an Asian. I think it might have something with how the Asian face, hair and eyes translates into the "Blink Look". Besides, who could possibly have a problem with the adorable Jamie Chung and how she represents Blink?

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It wasn't my intention to "paint you with an intolerant brush". If I came across that way, I apologize. I was asking for clarification based on your last post, not making accusations. If there has been heavy-handed harping on Captain Marvel's gender, I haven't caught it. I've seen a few trailers, but haven't noticed anything about it in any of them.

I agree that the Captain Marvel wave seemed really boring, but it honestly didn't seem any different from any of the movie tie-in waves to me; there just seem to be fewer splashy characters in this movie. The comic characters seemed like really weird choices, but I've thought that about one to two figures in virtually every wave, so what do I know? They don't seem to be clogging up shelves near me at all. You're totally right about wasted opportunity with the wave, but it seems more like a casualty of this bizarre mixed movie/comics model than of Disney's social agenda.

And, frankly, the whole narrative that fostering diversity is some sort of brainwashing conspiracy is pretty tiresome, and gets weaponized as an agenda far more often than calls for diversity do. It would be awesome if more representative pop culture could emerge organically, but I'd always rather see companies step in and help it along than see that representation stifled by enabling complacency (or worse). "Not seeing colour" is a luxury a lot of people just don't have.

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Keep them mixed. It was likely said before, but we wouldn't see so many obscure characters if they weren't tied to movie waves, it works. As for Agenda there's one real agenda pleasing Parents,  which consists of Real life Gun phobia or Hoplophobia and I guess, promoting skinny females only since they don't use Moonstone body (or even thicker thighs from Dark Phoenix figure) and are afraid to give Black Cat and Black Widow Cleavage. All related to one thing - angry parents. 

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14 hours ago, monron999 said:

  How else would you explain the laughably underwhelming assortment. In who else's mind, other than someone who has a specific idealism to push, would they put those secondary characters over much demanded figures like Mar-Vell, Ms. Marvel and Super Skrull? And the two comic figures they did include were only marginal wants, at best. 

 Now, I'll ask you to put it in perspective from where I'm seeing. Do you think that would still be the case if Mar-Vell, Ms. Marvel/Karla Sofen, Quasar or Super Skrull were in the assortment rather than Fury and Talos (both of who coulda been done with simple pack in head sculpt)? I don't mind the diversity. 

Genis-vell seems like a great choice for a Captain Marvel wave imo, even if they didn't go with his most well-known/popular look (par for the course with Hasbro).  I'll grant that Grey Gargoyle is an odd choice  and i would've preferred to see Moonstone, Quasar, or Super-Skrull in there.  That said, i never expected a GG figure from Hasbro so its kind of a nice to get a classic, if c-list, villain. Ms. Marvel or a classic comic Carol or Mar-vell seem like they could/should still show up somewhere, maybe in a 2-pack or exclusive?  maybe we'll hear something at toy fair.  Note that the recent BP wave 2 had 2 mcu black panther figs, so its not just Carol.  maybe this will be a pattern going forward, at least for solo character movie waves.  Not that i'm in favor of it.  Talos, Yon-Rogg, and young Fury are all reasonable inclusions for this movie wave. While I'm not that thrilled with the kree sentry BAF,  I'm glad they didn't go the route of making a normal sized mcu figure the BAF like they did with Mantis and  Okoye.

On topic, i favor including comic figs in mcu waves.  The main issue for me is my compulsion to complete BAFs,  i'm working on getting away from that this year so i can just cherry pick the comic and mcu figs i really want from each wave.  I know Hasbro counts on our compulsions to get us to take a chance of figures we might otherwise pass on buying, can't blame them for that.

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Genis-Vell was a great choice for a Capt Marvel Wave. I mean he was one of the dozens or so Captain Marvel. Not in that form per say but at least when Hasbro redoes a character, they try and make him different. Make my wardrode completionist heart happy.

I would even say that the Kree Sentry was the perfect BAF for the wave (was even my pick for my Ideal wave baf) but the execution was not bad  but not good either. I mean if he was slightly bigger most people wouldnt complain

Also given that Grey Gargoyle, who has been on my  has battle everyone, and I do mean everyone, slotting him into this wave was not a bad idea. 

as for the rest, yeah I agree that they were bad. Capt Marv would obviously be in it but not 2 of her. something tells me that when the wave assortment was leak they changed the assortment. They should have made the bomber jacket Ms. Marvel. 

Nick Fury, to me, is such a boring figure. I get the love of SamJack and his role in the movie but dare god does it make for a boring figure. 

Yon-Rogg and Talos are okay though. They are different enough to stand out if they execution of both could have been better.

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